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> marriage equality
fishers64
 Posted: Jun 29 2015, 11:04 PM
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Let's say that I own a gun shop, and it is against my religion to kill people or assist murderers.

If someone who is a murderer walks into my gun shop (and I'm in Sudan or Iraq where this isn't against the law) do I have to sell them a gun? Or am I now discriminating against a certain section of people (murderers) and can now be sued?
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Cow Jazz
 Posted: Jun 29 2015, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE (fishers64 @ Jun 29 2015, 10:04 PM)
Let's say that I own a gun shop, and it is against my religion to kill people or assist murderers.

Pretty silly occupation for someone who hates murders, honestly. It's like being an anti-war bomb manufacturer, or an anti-birth control condom maker.

Also pretty silly to compare homosexual people to murderers but I've seen worse comparisons.

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Steph
 Posted: Jun 29 2015, 11:15 PM
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So now you're literally equating my sexuality as analogous to murder

Do I even need to make further comment?

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Cow Jazz
 Posted: Jun 29 2015, 11:25 PM
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Here's a better comparison for you that DOESN'T equate marginalized sexualities with murderers. Let's say I'm a business owner, and I'm looking to hire some new employees. But my religion says women are a moral abomination and, as such, should not work, but instead be condemned to a life of being a housewife. So, I put up big signs that say "HELP WANTED (NO WOMEN)", and I refuse to serve women in my store unless they're accompanied by their husband, and I regularly post on facebook, twitter, etc. that women are an abomination to the Lord.

Do I still have the right to my religious expression? If women who are looking for a job (or, quite frankly, any woman who wants to smack down some sexism) take me to court for discriminatory work, will the court slap their concerns away, and say I'm just exercising my religious rights?

Or are we allowed to have anti-discrimination laws, under the logic that sometimes, you must sacrifice one freedom to allow another?

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limeparadox
 Posted: Jun 30 2015, 12:28 AM
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i wouldn't read too much into the gun store thing, i'm pretty sure gun store owner is just the default ordinary occupation for conservative analogies

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fishers64
 Posted: Jun 30 2015, 11:42 PM
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QUOTE (Cow Jazz @ Jun 29 2015, 08:25 PM)
Here's a better comparison for you that DOESN'T equate marginalized sexualities with murderers. Let's say I'm a business owner, and I'm looking to hire some new employees. But my religion says women are a moral abomination and, as such, should not work, but instead be condemned to a life of being a housewife. So, I put up big signs that say "HELP WANTED (NO WOMEN)", and I refuse to serve women in my store unless they're accompanied by their husband, and I regularly post on facebook, twitter, etc. that women are an abomination to the Lord.

Do I still have the right to my religious expression? If women who are looking for a job (or, quite frankly, any woman who wants to smack down some sexism) take me to court for discriminatory work, will the court slap their concerns away, and say I'm just exercising my religious rights?

Or are we allowed to have anti-discrimination laws, under the logic that sometimes, you must sacrifice one freedom to allow another?

Uh, we don't have to expend the resources to penalize him. Nobody is going to shop at that store, because that's over 54% of the population. He will either change his ways or go out of business.

Also, there are construction agencies that don't hire girls to do construction work. They don't put "No Women" on their signs, but they don't hire women anyway. That's because women are less suited to that kind of work or just plain flat don't want to do it.

Now, I'm not condoning that sort of behavior. But that's his religion, so it's not my business how he runs his show. If you want to be a jerk, there's no law against that.

With the gays/lesbians, we're talking about 2%-6% of the general population. And there's plenty of people to cater to their interests without shafting the other people who are practicing their religion.
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Steph
 Posted: Jun 30 2015, 11:57 PM
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I feel like when people break out percentages like that, it's with the intention to purposely mislead by making them seem small. Even if it were only 2% (actually, the 2011 Williams study concluded that 11% of the U.S. population admitted to same-sex attraction, and that's merely those who admitted, indicating that the actual number is greater), that's still about six million people, and the actual number is more than thirty-five million. That's a lot of people being discriminated against, here.

And this is just pointing out this number issue; I don't even feel like getting into how ridiculous and farcically inaccurate the rest of the information in the above post is.

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Cow Jazz
 Posted: Jul 1 2015, 12:02 AM
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QUOTE (fishers64 @ Jun 30 2015, 10:42 PM)
Uh, we don't have to expend the resources to penalize him. Nobody is going to shop at that store, because that's over 54% of the population. He will either change his ways or go out of business.

Oh, good, so you support boycotting homophobic businesses so they go out of business or change their ways. Glad to see you support some form of change.

QUOTE (fishers64 @ Jun 30 2015, 10:42 PM)
Also, there are construction agencies that don't hire girls to do construction work. They don't put "No Women" on their signs, but they don't hire women anyway. That's because women are less suited to that kind of work or just plain flat don't want to do it.

Women have actually fought to be able to work in construction, garbage disposal, sewage, etc., contrary to popular belief. The movement against sexism is absolute.

QUOTE (fishers64 @ Jun 30 2015, 10:42 PM)
If you want to be a jerk, there's no law against that.

Pretty sure there are several laws with not being a jerk in mind, such as laws against hate speech, or punching people in the face, or shouting "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

QUOTE (fishers64 @ Jun 30 2015, 10:42 PM)
With the gays/lesbians, we're talking about 2%-6% of the general population.

Keep in mind statistics like this are still being measured in a world where you can be murdered for being gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc; people won't exactly always be willing to acknowledge it, either to other people or even to themselves. The actual percentage could be larger.

(And even if not, the United States has a population of almost 319 million. 6% of that is still over 19 million people. That's almost enough for the entirety of New York (the state, not the city), the most populous state, to be gay.)

No right is absolute. As mentioned above, although we have a constitutional right to free speech, it is illegal to shout "FIRE" in a crowded theatre, and in some states, walk to your local synagogue with a swastika and proclaim the glories of Hitler. Sometimes, rights must be limited for one person to allow more freedom for another. In this case, freedom of religion is cut back a bit to allow LGBT+ people to exist without a constant barrage of hate from all sides.

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Serein
 Posted: Jul 1 2015, 12:12 AM
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I do not understand how anyone could think that it's okay for a business to deny service to someone based on who they are in the year 2015

also I guaran-hugging-tee that if I started a business and denied service to people just because they're white or straight or Christian, the people who are advocating for the other way around would flip their hugging sheep

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limeparadox
 Posted: Jul 1 2015, 12:39 AM
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i still don't really get why these Oppressed Christian Business Owners that allegedly exist are supposed to be sympathetic

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fishers64
 Posted: Jul 1 2015, 12:43 AM
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Most Christians have been happy to turn the other cheek to people who have been impinging on our freedoms. Our lack of religious discrimination has made us fat, dumb, happy, and compromising.

Also, for you scientific facts people:

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/2009/02/...homosexuals-do/

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyl...t-20047107?pg=1

http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/health-ri...xual-lifestyle/

http://www.personal.psu.edu/glm7/m160.htm
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Steph
 Posted: Jul 1 2015, 12:52 AM
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It's dangerous to be gay if you don't I protection? Wow. Let me put this sheep on the shelf next to "It's dangerous to be gay because (straight) people have assaulted me," "It's dangerous to be gay because I face daily, demeaning discrimination" and "It's dangerous to be gay because I get death threats." News.

Guess I better just "choose" to "stop being gay"!!! Suddenly I love dick! Wow that was easy!

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Cow Jazz
 Posted: Jul 1 2015, 12:52 AM
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Pretty much all of those are about gay men.

Lesbians confirmed for A-OK in the eye of the lord.

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Steph
 Posted: Jul 1 2015, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE (Cow Jazz @ Jul 1 2015, 12:52 AM)
Pretty much all of those are about gay men.

Lesbians confirmed for A-OK in the eye of the lord.

Actually the Bible literally never condemns, or even mentions, lesbianism. There's one passage about "women exchanging natural relations for unnatural ones" that a lot of fundies want to believe is about lesbianism, but it actually never even implies that. More likely it's talking about, like, bestiality or something, which is one of the few sex-related things explicitly prohibited for women in the Torah.

Lesbians: God-approved. Let's all munch some carpet in celebration, girls!

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limeparadox
 Posted: Jul 1 2015, 01:15 AM
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QUOTE
Even when AIDS was apparently not involved, homosexuals frequently met an early demise. Three percent of gays died violently. They were 116 times more apt to be murdered (compared to national murder rates), much more apt to commit suicide, and had high traffic-accident death-rates. Heart attacks, cancer, and liver failure were exceptionally common. 18% of lesbians died of murder, suicide, or accidents — a rate 456 times higher than that of white females aged 25-44. Age distributions of samples of homosexuals in the scientific literature from 1858 to 1997 suggest a similarly shortened lifespan.

i wonder whose fault this could possibly be

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